Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

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JJWilliamson
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Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by JJWilliamson » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:52 am

Never eat a pudding if you’re bursting for a pee,
because you’ll find the sweetness foiled, and all you’ll really be,
is one more fretful nincompoop who always fails to see
the pleasures of the little room and how it sets you free.

The mind can only concentrate on one thing at a time,
so if your thoughts are wandering, and bladder fully primed,
you’ll give no heed to lemon pie or brulee glazed with lime,
which seems to be a tragedy, a self-defeating crime.

So let the waters flow at will, release the mounting pain,
allow your focus to return to puddings once again,
for protocol and etiquette are sometimes inhumane,
and if they still enforce the rules, you must drink less champagne.


Original

Never eat a pudding if you’re bursting for a wee,
because you’ll find the sweetness foiled, and all you’ll really be,
is one more dancing nincompoop who always fails to see
the pleasures of the little room and how it sets you free.

The mind can only concentrate on one thing at a time,
so if your thoughts are wandering, and bladder fully primed,
you’ll give no heed to lemon pie or donuts glazed with lime,
which seems to be a tragedy, a self-defeating crime.

So let the waters flow at will, release the mounting pain,
allow your focus to return to puddings once again,
for protocol and etiquette are sometimes inhumane,
but if they still enforce the rules, you must drink less champagne.
Long time a child and still a child

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Re: Puddings at The Palace

Post by David » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:00 am

There's an almost Gilbertian (G&S, of course) verve to this, JJ. I'm not sure you've always got the stresses in the right places, as WSG would have done, but it's pretty close.

Is there such a thing as lemon pie, though? Technically it's possible, I know, but I suspect you've had to drop the usual meringue for metrical reasons. Nothing really wrong with that, of course.

A fun read.

Cheers

David

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Re: Puddings at The Palace

Post by ray miller » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:21 am

Enjoyed. It's a poem for the older person, isn't it? I thought the rhythm was fine apart from line 10.
I'm out of faith and in my cups
I contemplate such bitter stuff.

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Re: Puddings at The Palace

Post by NotQuiteSure » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:23 pm

.
Hi JJ,
like the idea, but it misses the mark for me.

(I second David's G&S suggestion).



Never eat a pudding if you’re bursting for a wee,

- Why not start with 'You should ... ' and make the whole
piece an advisory? And surely it should be 'pee' for
the alteration? Alternatively,
You should never eat a pudding, if what you want's to wee)
because you’ll find the sweetness foiled, and all you’ll really be,
- why not cos you'll find its sweetness sours ... ?
is one more dancing nincompoop who always fails to see
- given it's The Palace, perhaps a prancing popinjay?
Though the rest of the piece suggests that the 'victim' is seated
at a table, trapped by 'protocol and etiquette', so would they not
be squirming or fidgeting? Or possibly be another jiggling jelly ?
the pleasures of the little room and how it sets you free.
- I don't really follow the logic of this verse (and the explanation
in the final verse doesn't really work, for me). Why would they
'fail to see'? Aren't they 'denied' the pleasures of ?

The mind can only concentrate on one thing at a time,
- Presumably the mind of someone familiar with 'The Palace'
and its 'rules' would not be afflicted thus, so what type of mind
would be?
so if your thoughts are wandering, and bladder fully primed,
- ?... your bladder fully primed
If 'fully primed' are your thoughts likely to wander? Surely they
are rather focused at this point :)
you’ll give no heed to lemon pie or donuts glazed with lime,
- neither of these deserts seem particularly 'palatial'
which seems to be a tragedy, a self-defeating crime.
- Couldn't you introduce the author here?
which seems, to me, a tragedy ...
In what sense (other than the need for a rhyme) is it a 'crime'?


So let the waters flow at will, release the mounting pain,
- aren't you 'relieving' the pain, rather than releasing it?
And how/when did you get here anyway?
allow your focus to return to puddings once again,
- any synonyms for, rather than a repeat of, 'puddings'?
'sweet course' seems to have potential.
(Doesn't this contradict L1, which suggests you were focused
too much on 'pudding'?)
for protocol and etiquette are sometimes inhumane,
but if they still enforce the rules, you must drink less champagne.

- don't think 'inhumane' works, so, maybe (and ignoring meter)
though protocol and etiquette are often, here, arcane
one simple rule secures the fool - don't drink so/too much champagne



Regards, Not



.

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Re: Puddings at The Palace

Post by JJWilliamson » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am

Thank you very much David, Ray and Not, for the comments and suggestions. Much appreciated, as always.
David wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:00 am
There's an almost Gilbertian (G&S, of course) verve to this, JJ. I'm not sure you've always got the stresses in the right places, as WSG would have done, but it's pretty close. ...I've only read a few of his poems but will now read more. I'm employing iambic heptameter and I have stretched a stress or two. The purists would probably pull me for it. Ray has picked up on one that half niggled.

Is there such a thing as lemon pie, though? Technically it's possible, I know, but I suspect you've had to drop the usual meringue for metrical reasons. Nothing really wrong with that, of course. ...Certainly there is and it's gorgeous (if you like lemons). Here's a link to the scrumptious pie, which, incidentally, knocks the meringue version into a cocked hat. :)

https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/creamy-lemon-pie/

We also have a few lemon tart recipes, most of them being from the UK. The pies tend to be of American origin.

A fun read.

Cheers

David
ray miller wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:21 am
Enjoyed. It's a poem for the older person, isn't it? ...Actually, it IS, but it doesn't have to be. It's a poke at royal protocol and the silliness it sometimes represents.

I thought the rhythm was fine apart from line 10. ...I'm looking at the stresses on that line, especially the two uses of "to". One is stressed where the other isn't. It's acceptable but clumsy.
NotQuiteSure wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:23 pm
.
Hi JJ,
like the idea, but it misses the mark for me.

(I second David's G&S suggestion). ...Well, I'm not really sure what the suggestion is/was. I'm using iambic heptameter, rather than a 4:3 split of tet and tri. Are you referring to the stresses? I'm asking because the meter is one of personal choice, to give it a jaunty feel, hopefully removing the "seriousness" of the jab.



Never eat a pudding if you’re bursting for a wee,

- Why not start with 'You should ... ' and make the whole
piece an advisory? And surely it should be 'pee' for ...I hummed and harred over pee and wee. I'm starting to want a pee so watch this space. :)
the alteration? Alternatively,
You should never eat a pudding, if what you want's to wee)
because you’ll find the sweetness foiled, and all you’ll really be,
- why not cos you'll find its sweetness sours ... ? ...Thought about it and it's still a contender, although it asks the reader to climb a hill of sibilance.
is one more dancing nincompoop who always fails to see
- given it's The Palace, perhaps a prancing popinjay? ...You've got me interested. I love it!
Though the rest of the piece suggests that the 'victim' is seated
at a table, trapped by 'protocol and etiquette', so would they not
be squirming or fidgeting? Or possibly be another jiggling jelly ? ...Ah, I'm using dancing as in tap-dancing. It's meant to suggest how the discomfort forces him to quietly tap his feet.
the pleasures of the little room and how it sets you free.
- I don't really follow the logic of this verse (and the explanation
in the final verse doesn't really work, for me). Why would they
'fail to see'? Aren't they 'denied' the pleasures of ? ...When a person is desperate for the loo they can't focus on anything but the bladder. As a consequence every other pleasure is denied them. They are so trapped by protocol that they fail to see how one short trip to the toilet (little room) would solve their immediate problem. THEN they could immerse themselves in the pleasures of the pudding table. The puddings, of course, also stand as a metaphor for those who mindlessly follow silly protocols.

I watched a documentary, a few years ago, which discussed this very point:

An elderly gentleman had been invited to the palace for dinner because of some achievement or other. At this time, and the army does the same, a person was not allowed to leave the table during dinner, not even for a much needed loo break. He declined the invitation, explaining that he couldn't get through a formal dinner without having access to a loo, due to a bladder condition. The Queen, very sensibly, through her staff, waived the conditions and gave him permission to go for a pee as often as was necessary. Of course, to preserve the man's dignity, nothing was said to the other guests. On receiving the news the man in question accepted the invitation eagerly.

So he duly arrived, enjoyed a preprandial drink and took his place at the table. It wasn't long before he excused himself and nipped to the loo. The Queen didn't react and so the table sat silently. Later he excused himself again and still the Queen said nothing. His behaviour hadn't gone unnoticed, so when he excused himself a third time Princess Margaret cried "Where is he going NOW"? The Queen immediately interrupted by replying "It's alright, Margaret, I know about it". Princess Margaret immediately acquiesced. Silly, isn't it?

The puddings, as already mentioned, represent those who would preserve such lunacy.


The mind can only concentrate on one thing at a time,
- Presumably the mind of someone familiar with 'The Palace' ...Anyone's mind. There's a significant amount of evidence to support this. It sometimes looks like we CAN focus on more than one thing at a time, but we can't.
and its 'rules' would not be afflicted thus, so what type of mind
would be? ...Lost me here.
so if your thoughts are wandering, and bladder fully primed,
- ?... your bladder fully primed
If 'fully primed' are your thoughts likely to wander? Surely they
are rather focused at this point :) ...Ah! you should be focussing on the pudding. The mind wanders because it can only focus on the aching bladder, and so the pleasure of the pudding is all but lost. BUT, if you have a wee you can return to the table with gusto.
you’ll give no heed to lemon pie or donuts glazed with lime,
- neither of these deserts seem particularly 'palatial' ...I'll change the donuts. Lemon pie is the Queen's favourite! (just made that up) :D
which seems to be a tragedy, a self-defeating crime.
- Couldn't you introduce the author here? ...Yes, it's a definite possibility.
which seems, to me, a tragedy ...
In what sense (other than the need for a rhyme) is it a 'crime'? ...Oh, we use 'crime' in everyday speech all the time. EG "It's a crime to waste that wine". I'm employing the rhetorical device of exaggeration/hyperbole. Nothing new there.


So let the waters flow at will, release the mounting pain,
- aren't you 'relieving' the pain, rather than releasing it? ...Yes, that would be more logical. I'm thinking along the lines of releasing water to create a deluge, which in turn would relive the pain. I also had "Release me from this pain" in mind. In this example the grammar is different, though. Let me think on it.
And how/when did you get here anyway? ...It's a recommendation. The reader can make one of three important decisions.

1 Say nothing and put up with it.
2 Get up and go to the loo.
3 Stay where they are and piss themselves.

I like the idea of option 3. You might not get invited back to the palace, though. :)


allow your focus to return to puddings once again,
- any synonyms for, rather than a repeat of, 'puddings'? ...I'm happy with the repetition as it provides emphasis.
'sweet course' seems to have potential.
(Doesn't this contradict L1, which suggests you were focused
too much on 'pudding'?) ...I don't think so.
for protocol and etiquette are sometimes inhumane,
but if they still enforce the rules, you must drink less champagne.

- don't think 'inhumane' works, so, maybe (and ignoring meter) ...I think it's inhumane (hyperbole) to force a person to sit in pain, just because some fool from the distant past thought it was a good idea. Many members of the royal family have given some of the protocols the heave-ho. It's so unnecessary.
though protocol and etiquette are often, here, arcane
one simple rule secures the fool - don't drink so/too much champagne



Regards, Not



.
Best to all.

JJ
Long time a child and still a child

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by NotQuiteSure » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:25 am

.
Afternoon JJ.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...Ah, I'm using dancing as in tap-dancing. It's meant to suggest how the discomfort forces him to quietly tap his feet.
I thought (given he's seated?) fidgeting and jiggling one's leg, or indeed rocking, were more usual responses?
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...When a person is desperate for the loo they can't focus on anything but the bladder. As a consequence every other pleasure is denied them. They are so trapped by protocol that they fail to see how one short trip to the toilet (little room) would solve their immediate problem. THEN they could immerse themselves in the pleasures of the pudding table. The puddings, of course, also stand as a metaphor for those who mindlessly follow silly protocols.
That's what I thought you were saying, but still not getting it from the verse. I thought 'protocol' might have prevented them simply getting up and going at their (ahem) convenience - as the 'elderly gentleman' story demonstrates. Also, I think it's the words 'never eat' and 'pleasure' which throw/mislead me. What about something alone the lines of ...
You can't/won't enjoy your pudding if you’re bursting for a pee,
because you’ll find the sweetness foiled, and all you’ll really be
is one more dancing popinjay whose failure to foresee
how a timely trip/a privy sealed and tinkle lets you sit quite comfortably / (how) the little room's utility would let you dine, relieved.

.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...I'll change the donuts. Lemon pie is the Queen's favourite! (just made that up) :D
why not gateaux glazed with lime ?
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...Oh, we use 'crime' in everyday speech all the time. EG "It's a crime to waste that wine". I'm employing the rhetorical device of exaggeration/hyperbole. Nothing new there.
Indeed, but that's the same sense that 'tragedy' is being used, so aren't you just saying the same thing twice?
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
- any synonyms for, rather than a repeat of, 'puddings'?...I'm happy with the repetition as it provides emphasis
Fair enough, but that's three puddings, including the title.
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...I think it's inhumane (hyperbole) to force a person to sit in pain, just because some fool from the distant past thought it was a good idea. Many members of the royal family have given some of the protocols the heave-ho. It's so unnecessary.
though protocol and etiquette are often, here, arcane
one simple rule secures the fool - don't drink so/too much champagne

So you didn't like my dessert pun? Ah, well. :)
Still not convinced by these two lines, perhaps it's the 'but if they still enforce the rules' element.
That would apply regardless of 'puddings' wouldn't it? Shouldn't the ending return to the opening idea
of eating a pudding, something like
Though protocol and etiquette are sometimes inhumane,
to stay the course in comfort you must just drink less champagne.



Regards, Not



.

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by JJWilliamson » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:57 pm

Hello again, Not. Thanks for returning.
NotQuiteSure wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:25 am
.
Afternoon JJ.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...Ah, I'm using dancing as in tap-dancing. It's meant to suggest how the discomfort forces him to quietly tap his feet.
I thought (given he's seated?) fidgeting and jiggling one's leg, or indeed rocking, were more usual responses? ...Well you would be if you weren't attempting to keep the lid on things. Remember you'd just be one more stupid person following the rules for the sake of it, without realising how you'd be liberated, to enjoy the pleasures of the pudding, by simply having a wee. You'd be supressing your movements without really thinking. For this reason I've reinstated "nincompoop".
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...When a person is desperate for the loo they can't focus on anything but the bladder. As a consequence every other pleasure is denied them. They are so trapped by protocol that they fail to see how one short trip to the toilet (little room) would solve their immediate problem. THEN they could immerse themselves in the pleasures of the pudding table. The puddings, of course, also stand as a metaphor for those who mindlessly follow silly protocols.
That's what I thought you were saying, but still not getting it from the verse. I thought 'protocol' might have prevented them simply getting up and going at their (ahem) convenience - as the 'elderly gentleman' story demonstrates. Also, I think it's the words 'never eat' and 'pleasure' which throw/mislead me. What about something alone the lines of ...
You can't/won't enjoy your pudding if you’re bursting for a pee,
because you’ll find the sweetness foiled, and all you’ll really be
is one more dancing popinjay whose failure to foresee
how a timely trip/a privy sealed and tinkle lets you sit quite comfortably / (how) the little room's utility would let you dine, relieved.

. ...I see what you're getting at and I will revisit that line to see what occurs.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...I'll change the donuts. Lemon pie is the Queen's favourite! (just made that up) :D
why not gateaux glazed with lime ? ...It's too general. I know of a good lime brulee recipe but the food is not cooked yet. :)
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...Oh, we use 'crime' in everyday speech all the time. EG "It's a crime to waste that wine". I'm employing the rhetorical device of exaggeration/hyperbole. Nothing new there.
Indeed, but that's the same sense that 'tragedy' is being used, so aren't you just saying the same thing twice? ...Yes but I'm okay with it.
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
- any synonyms for, rather than a repeat of, 'puddings'?...I'm happy with the repetition as it provides emphasis
Fair enough, but that's three puddings, including the title.
.
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
...I think it's inhumane (hyperbole) to force a person to sit in pain, just because some fool from the distant past thought it was a good idea. Many members of the royal family have given some of the protocols the heave-ho. It's so unnecessary.
though protocol and etiquette are often, here, arcane
one simple rule secures the fool - don't drink so/too much champagne

So you didn't like my dessert pun? Ah, well. :)
Still not convinced by these two lines, perhaps it's the 'but if they still enforce the rules' element. ...Ah, yes, I'll change that to "and"
That would apply regardless of 'puddings' wouldn't it? Shouldn't the ending return to the opening idea. ...It's around the pudding course that the need to wee is most likely to kick in. It's highly unlikely that a guest would require a wee with his starter. :)

I thought I had returned to the opening assertion. I'm saying "Don't burst, please go to the loo and return to enjoy the pudding". It concludes by suggesting that the rules are silly and are unlikely to change. In this event just drink less.
of eating a pudding, something like
Though protocol and etiquette are sometimes inhumane,
to stay the course in comfort you must just drink less champagne.



Regards, Not



.
Thanks again

JJ
Long time a child and still a child

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by David » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:26 pm

JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
Thank you very much David, Ray and Not, for the comments and suggestions. Much appreciated, as always.
David wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:00 am
There's an almost Gilbertian (G&S, of course) verve to this, JJ. I'm not sure you've always got the stresses in the right places, as WSG would have done, but it's pretty close. ...I've only read a few of his poems but will now read more.
"When you're lying awake with a dismal headache" is a great example of his virtuosity. Or you could just watch all of Pirates of Penzance.

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by JJWilliamson » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:49 pm

David wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:26 pm
JJWilliamson wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am
Thank you very much David, Ray and Not, for the comments and suggestions. Much appreciated, as always.
David wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:00 am
There's an almost Gilbertian (G&S, of course) verve to this, JJ. I'm not sure you've always got the stresses in the right places, as WSG would have done, but it's pretty close. ...I've only read a few of his poems but will now read more.
"When you're lying awake with a dismal headache" is a great example of his virtuosity. Or you could just watch all of Pirates of Penzance.
Thanks, David

I studied Pirates at school and enjoyed it enormously. I remember wondering why I liked it so much. Isn't that curious?

"I am the very model of a modern Major-general."...This is pretty close but lacking one stress. Yes, I could even add some repetends to my poem to compete. :)

JJ
Long time a child and still a child

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by Macavity » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:02 am

Entertaining JJ. Particularly like the inhumane/champagne. prancing an option to dancing?

best

mac

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by JJWilliamson » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:55 pm

Thanks for dropping in, mac. Appreciated.
Macavity wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:02 am
Entertaining JJ. Particularly like the inhumane/champagne. ...Ha! It's my favourite.

prancing an option to dancing? ...I've considered "prancing" but am now more inclined to go with something resembling "fidgeting". I'll experiment and see.

best

mac
Best

JJ

PS

I've changed 'dancing' to "troubled" but I might still change.

J
Long time a child and still a child

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by Macavity » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:13 am

prancing an option to dancing? ...I've considered "prancing" but am now more inclined to go with something resembling "fidgeting". I'll experiment and see.
Yes, I suspected as much. Thumbs up on fretful.

best

mac

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Re: Puddings at The Palace (revison 1)

Post by JJWilliamson » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:31 pm

Thanks for the thumbs up, mac. I'm getting there.

JJ
Long time a child and still a child

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