On Vegetable Roots

[Lake]

272

One who does not know a word
but speaks poetically,
has captured the essence of the poetics;
one who does not understand a Buddhist chant
but speaks with allegorical subtleties,
has realized the profundity of Chan.

Original

菜根谭

洪应明 Hong Yingming

一字不识，而有诗意者，得诗家真趣；一偈不参而有禅味者，悟禅教玄机。

.

[Suzanne]

Lake,

I love the rhythm of this and the beauty of such calm statements. Thank you for posting it. The script of the original is also beautiful to see.

Thank you,
Suzanne

[Lake]

Hi Suzanne ,

Thank you for reading. I like what you say "calm statements".
This may not qualify as poem but I find they are wise words, worth reading and thinking.

Best,

Lake

[Lake]

79

Where it is filthy, there exist abundant living things,
where the water is clear, there usually inhabits no fish.
Therefore, a great man, instead of preserving his own
purity, should be magnanimous and tolerate this world.


Original

Hong Yingming

地之秽者多生物，水之清者常无鱼；故君子当存含垢纳污之量，不可持好洁独行之操。

[twoleftfeet]

Hi, Lake

It's great to see you posting translations again!

One who does not know a word
but speaks poetically,
has captured the essence of the poetics;
one who does not understand a Buddhist chant
but speaks with allegorical subtleties,
has realized the profundity of Chan.

Do the references to "know" and "understand" refer to not knowing the meaning of foreign words?

Does "has captured the essence of poetry" change the original meaning?

Geoff

[Suzanne]

79

Where it is filthy, there exist abundant living things,
where the water is clear, there usually inhabits no fish.
Therefore, a great man, instead of preserving his own
purity, should be magnanimous and tolerate this world.

Lake, I like you so much, have I invited you for coffee?
Well, please come, it is just a little airfare.

Seems to me I have asked you before with the same impromptu enthusiasm. You would be such pleasant company for a walk or a cup of something tasty. I am so curious as to where you are in the world and yet.... you are mysteriously hidden which is fun, too.

The 79 posted up there reminds me of two things my mother used to say if the waters of life were murky concerning social situations.

She'd say, don't be bothered if people are talking about you, "if people are not talking about you, you are either dead or boring."
and if we were upset about being teased she would remind us "people only tease people they like, people they don't like, they ignore."

Both support the idea that murky water can be a fine place to thrive if you swim magnanimously.


Thank you, Lake.
Suzanne

[Lake]

Hi Jeff,

You always read more from a piece than I do.

This is a classical work (written in Ming dynasty) which I have to read with commentary to make sure I understand it.

"Do the references to "know" and "understand" refer to not knowing the meaning of foreign words?"

From what I understand the words carry their literal meanings - not knowing how to read and write, illiterate.

Does "has captured the essence of poetry" change the original meaning?

I don't think it does. Now that you asked, I have to rethink, maybe yes and no,depending how you read it.

Thanks for your challenging questions that help me to see if the translation gets the meaning across.

Many thanks,

Lake

[twoleftfeet]

Hi Jeff,

You always read more from a piece than I do.

This is a classical work (written in Ming dynasty) which I have to read with commentary to make sure I understand it.

"Do the references to "know" and "understand" refer to not knowing the meaning of foreign words?"

From what I understand the words carry their literal meanings - not knowing how to read and write, illiterate.

Does "has captured the essence of poetry" change the original meaning?

I don't think it does. Now that you asked, I have to rethink, maybe yes and no,depending how you read it.

Thanks for your challenging questions that help me to see if the translation gets the meaning across.

Many thanks,

Lake

Hi again, Lake.

Now I'm confused, because as far as the chant is concerned, surely you hear it? Hence my original question.

[Lake]

Hi Suzanne ,

I am so glad you enjoy what I'm reading and doing here and find things that can relate to your own experience.
Thank your for your cup of coffee, will check my account to see if I have enough mileage for a free ticket.
I enjoy having a pleasant company, but a lot of times I also enjoy walking alone.

Thank you for your kind words,

Lake

[Lake]

Hi again, Lake.

Now I'm confused, because as far as the chant is concerned, surely you hear it? Hence my original question.

Hi Jeff,

Are there such circumstances when you hear it, but don't understand it?
Or would a different word help? Replace "understand" with "study"?

Thanks,

Lake

[twoleftfeet]

Hi again, Lake.

Now I'm confused, because as far as the chant is concerned, surely you hear it? Hence my original question.

Hi Jeff,

Are there such circumstances when you hear it, but don't understand it?
Or would a different word help? Replace "understand" with "study"?

Thanks,

Lake

I was thinking of the chant being in a foreign language, or a mantra like "Om mani padme um" which
(apparently) is difficult to translate and (according to Wiki) is sometimes rendered as " Ǎn mání bāmī hōng "
- of course I have no idea what that means!

Regards
Geoff

[Lake]

I was thinking of the chant being in a foreign language, or a mantra like "Om mani padme um" which
(apparently) is difficult to translate and (according to Wiki) is sometimes rendered as " Ǎn mání bāmī hōng "
- of course I have no idea what that means!

Thanks Geoff. Now I see what you meant.
No, I don't have any idea what those are either.
It's said the ealier Buddhist Scripture was translated by Tang Xuanzang, a monk in the Tang Dynasty.
So I think you may have a point here.
But what I read from the original, "does not know a word" is just like the Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng who didn't know how to read and write but was selected as the successor to the Fifth Patriarch.

Nice talking to you.

Lake

[twoleftfeet]

Where it is filthy, there exist abundant living things,
where the water is clear, there usually inhabits no fish.
Therefore, a great man, instead of preserving his own
purity, should be magnanimous and tolerate this world.

I almost missed this, Lake.

L2 would be better as
where the water is clear usually no fish live there OR
where the water is clear usually there are no fish/

Does "it" also refer to water?
If so, I would suggest
where the water is filthy....
where it is clear........

L3/L4 - perfect.

Geoff

[Lake]

Where it is filthy, there exist abundant living things,
where the water is clear, there usually inhabits no fish.
Therefore, a great man, instead of preserving his own
purity, should be magnanimous and tolerate this world.

I almost missed this, Lake.

L2 would be better as
where the water is clear usually no fish live there OR
where the water is clear usually there are no fish/

Does "it" also refer to water?
If so, I would suggest
where the water is filthy....
where it is clear........

L3/L4 - perfect.

Geoff

Geoff, thans for the help.

L2, your version does read better. It's that the simpler the better case. I think probably I was affected by the original script that is written in the classical literary style. I'll have a think to see which of your suggestions I like more.

It - I struggled there, too. "It" refers to a place as opposed to "water". Does "place" sound better? I'm stuck with the phrasing.

Glad L3/4 works for you.

Many thanks,

Lake

[twoleftfeet]

Geoff, thans for the help.

L2, your version does read better. It's that the simpler the better case. I think probably I was affected by the original script that is written in the classical literary style. I'll have a think to see which of your suggestions I like more.

It - I struggled there, too. "It" refers to a place as opposed to "water". Does "place" sound better? I'm stuck with the phrasing.

Glad L3/4 works for you.

Many thanks,

Lake

Ah! A place where the "vegetable roots" are, I presume?

If that is the case, i would go for something like:
Where the soil/earth/ground/land is filthy...
Where the water is...

Otherwise you could try -
Where the water is clear...
Where it is filthy...
- here "it" implies water, but can be interpreted however you want.

Geoff

[Lake]

Ah! A place where the "vegetable roots" are, I presume?

You are a deep thinker, Geoff.
Or a place where the vetegable roots.

If that is the case, i would go for something like:
Where the soil/earth/ground/land is filthy...
Where the water is...

I thought about what you mentioned above, but not quite sure. Let me think.

Otherwise you could try -
Where the water is clear...
Where it is filthy...
- here "it" implies water, but can be interpreted however you want.

That's a good idea though the sentence order is switched.

Still pondering.
Lake

[Lake]

164


Leave some food for the hungry mice,
Light no lamp for the flying moths.
This thought of our ancestors
continues our ever-growing lives.
Without such spirit, human is
but a soulless body, no different
than the dirt and trees.


Original

Hong Yingming

“为鼠常留饭，怜蛾不点灯”，古人此点念头，是吾人一点生生之机，无此即所谓土木形骸而已。

[twoleftfeet]

164


Leave some food for the hungry mice,
Light no lamp for the flying moths.
This thought of our ancestors
continues our ever-growing lives.
Without such spirit, human is
but a soulless body, no different
than the dirt and trees.


Original

Hong Yingming

“为鼠常留饭，怜蛾不点灯”，古人此点念头，是吾人一点生生之机，无此即所谓土木形骸而已。

This is interesting, Lake.

The difficulty, for me, is
This thought of our ancestors
continues our ever-growing lives.

- I suppose I could argue that there are 2 thoughts!
More seriously, I would say that, perhaps, "thoughtfulness" would be better.

"continues our ever growing lives" ?
- I think I know what you mean - something like "is part of our ever-expanding consciousness".
The problem, of course, is in straying too far from the original, and only you will know how far out my guesses are!

Best wishes
Geoff
PS "a human is.." or "a human-being is.." is better.

[Lake]

Thank you very much, Geoff.

This is interesting, Lake..

I thought it interesting, too.

The difficulty, for me, is
This thought of our ancestors
continues our ever-growing lives.

- I suppose I could argue that there are 2 thoughts! .

The two examples do sound like two thoughts, do they? I think it is the thought that shows pity to the living things ( the two examples shown above).

More seriously, I would say that, perhaps, "thoughtfulness" would be better.

"continues our ever growing lives" ?
- I think I know what you mean - something like "is part of our ever-expanding consciousness".
The problem, of course, is in straying too far from the original, and only you will know how far out my guesses are!

I know I didn’t make it clearer for the reader to understand. But you always have your own interpretation.
It might be this thought of kindliness, mercy is the key to our human beings that thrive and multiply?

PS "a human is.." or "a human-being is.." is better.

Yes, much better! Will think again on the middle part.

Much appreciated.

Lake